Tough Year. Still Managed Some Luck and Success

[nomad_archer]

Well MRBB maybe the direction PA is going may chance since we are getting a new head for the PGC this year.

The low deer numbers in some areas are the hunters fault as well as the PGC since they manager the number of doe tags handed out and with that control to some degree the number of deer that are killed. Like I said they made changes to make the first week of rifle buck only and that alone has significantly helped the deer herd and we are seeing more deer now and a better quality of deer than we ever have. Now granted you have to take that with a grain of salt because we used to see insane amounts of deer but the quality wasnt there. I think we are getting right around the sweet spot at least around my cabin. A few more years and it will be fantastic. I am seeing better and better bucks but I do not complain about wanting bigger bucks then shoot the first one that walks by.

Any on that complains that they want bigger bucks and shoots the first one that walks by has there head up there rear if they think that is possible. We shall see the direction the PGC goes with a new head but where I hunt is big woods and the old gray beards love the antler restrictions because it was rare to see anything more than a spike now we are seeing big six/eight points so they are starting to believe as well. I have no complaints about the antler restrictions as they were the best thing the state has done.

Attitudes are changing towards letting the little ones go but you will always have the person that shoots the first one that walks by. I agree with alot of what you said. I think the key was if you are complaining about lack of big bucks and shoot the first small one that walks by you have no right to complain. I believe we are much more on the same page than I originally though.

[mrbb]

yes I agree, things have been changing, slightly for the better, but I have to think alot has to do with, many old timers are just not hunting anymore, and the new generation of hunters, seem to have more self control on what they will shoot
its very hard to change old time belief's, passed down from generation to generation
that's where I think we are screwed on poaching issue's and people using a tag twice or a family memebers tag, its a lot of learned behavior I fear

[nomad_archer]

Poaching and trespassing will always be an issue along with some peoples greed and need to cheat to get bragging rights.

We are losing lots of old timers but on the same hand most of the hunters I see these days are the older generation grey beards guys in their 50's and 60's. Thats who the majority of the hunters I see out these days. Not many young people in the 12-25 or 25-40 age group. So we will have a very sharp decline in PA hunters in the next say 20 years as the generation of grey beards that taught me to hunt give it up due to age, health or lack of desire.

Don't get me wrong we have some young guys hunting but its not nearly the numbers of hunter recruitment that we used to have. Maybe that is a good thing for the deer herd. But I have to be positive there has been a slight recovery in deer numbers at my cabin because the first week of rifle is buck only. That allows many more deer to survive the first week and then when doe season does come in, there isnt nearly the pressure. So it works out well in my mind. Plus the habitat is there to support more deer than are there at least for now.

[Griz]

I've been following this thread with interest. Everyone posting has made some very good points on why some states don't have very many larger bucks. As most of you know, I'm from NH, with the same problem. Not many animals make it to the 3.5 yr old or older ages. IMO the one's that are most responsible are the dnr's/fish & game departments. As all of you PA hunters have stated, since the antler restriction law has been in effect, things are getting better. And I believe will continue. If you look at the states that have good trophy numbers, there laws and restrictions are what makes the difference. Yes, you have to have the habitat, soil, and climate too. If you don't have the restrictions, the guys/gals who kill legal animals that are young and small have every right too. I have a hard time knocking some of them. I do believe as you evolve as a hunter, that your goals should change to letting the inmature animals walk. But as we know some people will always have the attitude, if its brown its down. Thats why I think the laws are the key. But the wardens have to inforce the laws to make it work. As mrbb has said before, some wardens just don't do there job. Another reason why I put the major blame on the departments. My state is some what like WV, I can kill three bucks in a season. (Just plain stupid!) Look at Ohio, one buck, no matter what weapon. Thats one reason Ohio is such a good place to hunt. The reason departments don't change the rules, is simple. They don't care about the animal, they only care about how much money comes in from liecence sales. Hopefuly discussions like this will make the new hunter (after a few knotches in there belt) gain self control, and raise there goals a little higher. As far as the hunter that actualy needs the meat to feed the family, do what you have to as longs as its legal.

PSEhunter, Your one of those young guys who has already understood what it takes to have mature animals around. At your age, if you keep having the success your having, the trophy room will get very large. I'm betting you have a good mentor.

[nomad_archer]

Griz I agree you bring up some very valid points.

My experience is mostly about PA and when the antler restrictions went into effect lots of people complained. Some still do but the fact is we are seeing more and larger bucks period. Even if someone is shooting an small immature six point it is still much larger than what we were seeing say 10 years ago when a six point was a rarity. Continuing with that we are seeing larger bucks and some 130"+ class deer. Now that aren't that common but we see a couple of "big bucks" each year maybe not quite 130 inches but much much better than in the past.

My biggest gripe with the PA Game Commission was the herd reduction program only because it went too far now granted herd reduction was needed and there is no argument there but we went from seeing lots of deer say 30+ in a day in rifle season to seeing 1-2 in the entirety of archery and rifle season. So when I say things are recoving up at my camp that means some days I see nothing but sometimes I see 1 a day and sometimes as many as 12 in a day. Not all are even in range for bow but at least I am seeing deer.

Granted my long stay for archery up there was 4 days in mid November.

Day 1 - I saw one shooter buck
Day 2 - I saw 12 does
Day 3 - I saw 1 doe (in my freezer)
Day 4 - I saw 6 or 7 does

Rifle season I was only able to hunt one day up there and we did lots of drives in the afternoon and I saw exactly zero deer between posting and driving. So all in all i was only skunked once on public land at my camp. Seems to be improving up there and this year should help as well since the does dont get much pressure in rifle like they used to. I hunted quite a bit more around home and at my gun club with my wife and we saw deer on just about each occasion. So like I said its getting better and we are seeing more deer. Everything is relative though. If you were used to seeing 30+ this hunting really stinks but after years of seeing 1-2 an entire season, I can work with what we have now. I do shoot does for meat and I am starting to buck hunt for a buck that was bigger than the last one but I haven't gotten any that many would consider "big" they are real trophies for me.

[PSEhunter]

Griz, I enjoy the compliment. I was blessed to be introduced to the outdoors at a young age by my grandpa and dad. By taking many squirell, doe, and a few small bucks at a younger age, I was able to and mature enough to learn to let deer walk by 8th grade, the age at which most kids (my friends back then) were bragging about the 4 point they shot.

All- I have really enjoyed the insight, opinions, and information from everyone. One other tidbit I may add. Is that as far as herd numbers and legal deer kills, as stated WV allows 3 bucks, and i BELIEVE 10 deer total!?! if you play your cards right and buy/use tags in correct times. While I do not know how I would quite feel about an actual antler restriction in WV (although it would help), I would just like to see them change the law to only being allowed to kill one buck during rifle season. I honestly think the quality of bucks would slowly start to improve if this was implemented. Again, guys who can kill the first 4-6 point they see Monday morning, can go back out Tuesday morning and shoot the second buck they see, a 5 point... Although this clearly wouldnt fix or change all problems, but anything is a start. WV, did make a move this year, by going in the direction of other states that two deer can be killed in one day, but not two bucks. Thus, people must take a doe between killing bucks. That is the case regardless of whether you kill a doe the same day. While I give WV game wardens/dnr some respect for implementing that, I dont see any progress to be made there. Somebody who wants to kill 2 bucks in 2 days, could simpy have someone who wants meat kill a doe and check it in themselves as their doe kill, thus allowing them to shoot a second buck the following day, like all prior years. My point, I do not feel WV implementing the rule a doe must be killed between buck kills, was a good solution. Although it may be a start, I personally feel simply reducing the legal buck kill from 3 to 2, or especially being only allowed ONE RIFLE buck, would help. Feel free to give insight or critique.

[nomad_archer]

PSE just to ease your concerns in PA the restrictions are simple and straight forward. In a some parts of the state the bucks must have 3 up off including the main beam and brow tines dont count on one side. In the rest and majority of the state a deer must have 3 points on one side including the brow tine and main beam. So that is something that does work well. In PA it is one buck regardless of weapon and because the doe tags are region specific and limited most people can get 2 does tags sometimes three if it is a special regs area. Usually I end up with 3 tags two doe and one buck and that is plenty for me. The ability to take 3 bucks and 10 total deer is crazy for most people. Now in PA there are special regs areas where you could if you wanted get as many does as you were willing to buy doe tags for but those are the counties around the major cities Pittsburgh and Philly and access is tough and to get an additional doe tag after the draw in those counties you have to go the the county court house which is an additional pain.

[Griz]

Its good your state (PA) has taken some steps to inprove the quality of bucks. After reading your explination to PSE on the restrictions, it all looks like common sense. I wish my state (NH) would try to do something as PA. Yah as you said people will complain but it could make the herd have more mature animals in it. As in PA, hunter will get use to it, and I think in the long run everyone would have more success. Its a good thing we all still have Ohio, its just a longer drive for me than you.

[mrbb]

well to add a little more
in PA the antler restriction did more than just allow bucks to age, it allowed Older healither bucks to breed, thus why many 4-5-6 pointers you see now, are just bigger 4-5-6 pointers than in past yrs, having/allowing older bucks to breed, makes for healthier off spring, making allowing for better first racks
WV I think and sorry if others don't feel so, they have the 2-3 bucks a yr deal, to control herd numbers, as they have a LOT of deer, just shooting more doe, won't solve the probelm in whole(would sure be cool to have a higher buck to doe ratio however LOL)
so till they get numbers down to more managiable level, they have the high harvest option, just look into how many deer vehicle collisions WV has, it shows there is a true safety factor, about too many deer, they have
just ause a state has a one or two buck or"X" amount of bucks allowed per yr, doesn't always show the best picture, there are many states where you can kill like a bucka day for months, be it any deer a day too.
and they have been like that for yrs and yrs and yrs, and they still have a lot of deer
QDM's biggest factor should always be what the land can provide for , in deer numbers,
and this needs in my opinion to be adressed a LOT better in smaller zone, units, or what ever you want to call them
the way we mamage deer now, is, doing the job, but can sure be done a ton better
said it many times here, a mile down the road, can be a huge difference in land quality, and deer numbers
when you look to manage numbers, in area's as big as counties or zones, its a hard nut to crack , just too many factors to make every unit/zone or?? done well
a healthy herd should be the goal, of deer managment, not the size of the bucks, but overall herd health
and that means age structure of all age's
and that typically means if done right, big bucks will be a lot more of the herd, than just having lots of 1.5 yr old deer come hunting season

as for hunter's age's
in my area, its a pretty good mix of old timers, and many in the 25-40 yr old age's
far too many of the older of both these age class's, are outlaws, to a point, they all tend to feel they HAVE to kill a buck, and its GOD given right to do so, and Many feel that means, at any means needed to do so!
meat hunters, I wish would stick to doe's, they would be doing all hunters a favor, as well as the deer herd
just shooting a buck, to say you shot a buck is a sad reason to hunt
I am NOT saying hunters should be trophy buck hunters, any buck can be a trophy, I agree here
but to keep a healthy herd, placing an antler restriction, helps to help more to keep a herd healthy, and just make BIG bucks
so since we cannot rely on self control many times, they work best with the AR's
also, lets not forget, when PA started the AR(antler restriction)
it was like a 25 dollar fine IF you got caught, pretty sure its still only a 25 dollar fine now too!
many folks seen that as, well a roll of the dice, and still shoot any buck they want
wish the fine was a lot higher!, that would maybe have helped spped up the improvements we gained here in PA!

[OHPA]

I agree with many of all of your statements. I use to live in Pgh. and now live in Cleve. My father and I have a cabin in NW. PA(Warren County). I now hunt both OH. and PA. Warren, Pa. is all mountains and I have hunted there for 35 years. Yes, I used to see more deer, but it was rare for me to see a racked buck. I must say though that the last two years in PA, I have seen more deer than normal. I took three with a bow out of the last 4 years in Pa. All descent racked bucks for PA. I hold out for larger ones in OH as I know the potential here.

I wait until November to start hunting PA. The first day for me this year(Nov. 4th), I saw about 14 deer and about 5 were bucks. Shooters were not in range. This is all sitting in my tree stand. The next morning, I saw a doe and then I took my 8 pointer. I stayed in my tree stand for about two hours after I shot since I did not see it drop. During that two hours, I saw about 5 more does and two more bucks. Granted, it was the rut and they were feeding on acorns in my area.

I was then done hunting in Pa for the year. No doe license for me. It is tradition for my dad and I to travel to there Friday after Thanksgiving through Wed. for gun opener in Pa. Special time for us. I did not hunt, but I did what I call a "mock" hunt this year opening day. I sit in my chosen spot for the day to help me find good future spots for hunting opening day. I had a great opening day(without a gun). I saw 19 deer total. Eight were bucks and five were shooters for me. One was possibly the biggest one I have seen there in many years. All this with possibly the fewest shots I have ever heard opening day. There are definitely less hunters in my area these days.

I like the antler restrictions in Pa. as I want to see larger bucks and I am definitely seeing larger bucks.

I also hunt about 40 minutesto one hour outside of Cleveland(depending on my spot I choose) and see fewer deer than Pa., but the fact that a trophy can be around the corner(I see them on my trail cams) keeps me in the stand hoping. I love both states, but the mountains of Pa. are in my blood. Nothing like the mountains for me. I have enjoyed this thread.
Thanks all.