Tough Year. Still Managed Some Luck and Success

[PSEhunter]

Well, like 99% of hunters have already said this was an extremely tough season. I live on the Ohio WV border, and bow hunt primarily in South East Ohio. My grandpa and I have used cameras and hunted hard the past handful of years, and have had success of late. I was able to take a decent 9 point 4 years ago, and a nice 10 point 2 seasons ago that scored 139 after deductions. This season however it seemed ALL pictures of bucks were nocturnal, even during the hot and cold rut period. I took an 8 point in central WV early season, so I wasn't too bummed about not being able to kill let alone see nice bucks during the later part of the regular season and into gun season. Grandpa was able to take what we thought was a 10 we had a few pics of that ended up being a double brow 12. Since he shot that deer back in mid November, weve had only a handful of daylight buck pictures total, and never saw another buck while in the woods. I realize and know first hand hunting in WV and OHIO are two totally different ball games, with the amount of deer you see and trophys to be taken. However, this was by far the hardest year weve had as far as locating, seeing, or even getting pictures of deer.
Here are pictures of the bucks.
10522 Grandpas 12
10521 Central WV 8
10523 10 point
10524 9 point

[OHPA]

Just curious as how you feel WV and Ohio are totally different ball games? I hunt OH and PA and also feel the same way but I am always curious about others thoughts.

Thanks.

[PSEhunter]

I do not know any actual statistics, but just from hunting both my entire life, and from talking to buddies, hearsay, etc. As well as helping the local taxidermist in town.. I can sit in the woods in WV at most of my hunting spots and expect to see 15-25 deer if I sit daylight til dark. Of which, 3 may have horns, and the biggest will be a 4 or 5 point. Where I hunt at in Ohio, I am LUCKY to see 4-5 deer the whole weekend, but if I do, theres a good chance I see a shooter. Living on the border of WV, around the Parkersburg area, everyyybooddyyy is always trying to find land to lease, or opportunities to drive up north and hunt in Ohio. The 8 point this year I took was the first deer I've killed wider than 12" in WV.. Ive killed 4 bucks in Ohio, of which the smallest was 15" inside.. I'm sure some people reading this will argue facts, numbers of [I]reported[I] kills, etc. This is just my (the locals in this areas consensus) opinion, so take it for what its worth.

[mrbb]

well since i used to hunt WVm Ohio, and live in PA
pending how old you are, WV currently where I hunt, near Harrisonville, near SE ohio, its like again PA was in the boom of it deer herd like late 80's early 90's
when we had tons of deer, just very very few deer past the gae of 2.5, it was nothing to see deer just about any place you went
and in WV where I hunted(7-8 yrs, last time in 2010 ) about any place I sat in the weeds I seen deer, with most being doe or small bucks, and a decent 100+ inch buck being on the rarer side of things, due mostly I say because like in PA< folks just wanted to say they killed a buck, and not so much cared if it was a big one or not
the area I hunted was timbered all over and thus just had/has a ton of cover and great browse, fairly remote area, with a few farms here and there and not a ton of hunting pressure, I was on like a 1500 acre private tract, that maybe had 3 guys hunting it!
so deer numbers were very high, and all the borders of the land, was hunted very hard by neighbors, thus killing a lot of younger bucks, with every yr I hunted it bucks getting better and better
WV has a ton of deer, it it something like 10 times more likely to have a deer vehicle collision than any other state out there, which I bet helps keep numbers in check some(sadly), driving thru WV to Ohio, some yrs I have counted over a 100+ dead deer on the side of the road, in the few miles I ran thru it to get to Ohio, and many many close calls on hitting many too every yr!
PA glory yrs were like this to, but since the state and most private lands got so over browsed and lack of cover and thus food, the state started very liberal kills, and thus now here in PA< were getting closer to Ohio in quality(still far to go, but as close as ever)
PA and WV, have as TON less AG lands/farm lands, poorer soil quality on a whole, and as such, its also a reason we have smaller racked bucks in most places, it would more or less take a PA, WV deer more yrs to reach a same sized rack(some area's have better in both states) but on an average, soils add up to quality of deer too, something many hunters I feel miss understand
just food alone won't grow monster bucks, its a combo of good soil, food, age, and genitic's, when the srats align things can happen

so that's my opinion on why WV and Ohio are different places to hunt
its quality of soils, gens of deer, and food they get to eat
again on an average, as both Ohio and WV have area's of better and poorer soils and etc.

One other thing I think also that is HUGE deal to me, is the fact that MANY MANY MANY hunters in Ohio, know there are big bucks about, so,many are much more willing to leave smaller one's walk
in places like PA< and in WV where I hunted, like my hunting cabin for an example, its a 50+ yr hunting cabin, of 50+ yrs of deer hunting, with about starting of with about 10 guys and now about 40 in all
and in the first 30+ yrs no one ever even seen a buck in the 120's, simply cause thee just wasn't any or if any very very far and few
so no one would hold out for a big buck, cause they just didn't have any really to hold out for
and thus, you ended up with generations of hunters that just killed the first legal buck they seen
and that is still a huge problem in PA
still tons of generations of old time hunters that still feel that way, and that also is why many area in PA still suffer from few and far between big bucks
In Ohio, every area I have hunted, in the short period of time, say a week, or less, I have always seen 120+ class bucks in a hunt, may never have got one, but seen them
so I had less desire to kill a small buck, cause I knew bigger were about
hunt 15-20 yrs in pa and never even see a 120 class buck
and you lower your standards pretty fast LOL
you can poll hunters in PA< any one that has been at it for more than 20 yrs, and I would bet a ton of $$ that says if any have ever seen a 150 inch buck it has MAYBE been in the last 4-5 yrs, and any others before that were in other states LOL
not many folks in Ohio can say the same, I am willing to bet any hunter in ohio that has been hunting for more than 5 yrs can say they seen a 150 class buck, again, maybe not killed it, but you seen one, and know there about
PA's antler restrictions is the only reason we have started to get bigger bucks, had that not happened, we would still be killing 90% spiker's and 1.5 yr old bucks!

[PSEhunter]

mrbb your post hits the nail on the head, entirely. I just didnt go as in depth. Also, Ohios laws are much more strict. In WV, you get 3 bucks (legally), as a common hunter, assuming you dont even own any land. I can kill one with my buck, one wiht my rifle, and buy an additional stamp. Thus, compounding all factors such as less good soil, rack size, amount of deer, etc, any time a buck that even scores 70-80 walks in front of a hunter, he shoots it. The average middle class to old West Virginian just wants to be able to walk into work the following week, and brag about killing a buck, that may only be 11-12 inches wide. Why not shoot that buck an hour into opening morning? Go home, watch sports. and Go back out Tuesday morning and shoot another the same size!?!.. I am only 22, so I may have have the plethora of knowledge as an older "savvy" hunter. But as stated in my earlier post, everybodys goal is to cross the border and hunt for the big boys in Ohio.

[mrbb]

Well I have been hunting a long time, and hunted in many places, and know a ton of hunters all over
so I tend to have a good insight on hunting and mind sets of many sides to base experiences on any more
QDM has been a god sent to having better bucks all over, but unless a person owns a lot of land, or is working close with neighbors, its hard to even grow big bucks in many places
places like Ohio, and any of the top 5 B&C producing states, all have top quality soil, and as such, just knowing bigger bucks are about, saves a ton of smaller bucks
add in how many non residents pay top prices to travel to these places, where a fee can be added to shooting a small buck, and quality of deer in these states increases
as outfitters, need to maintain sized deer, thus do btter land improvments, and work better with heighboring lands, making even better quality of deer
states that don't draw hunters based on quality of bucks, loose a lot of these gains, furthering the smaller bucks in these area's/states
add in how many game depts, sat on there ass's for decades, thinking deer would just take care of them selves?? And the ball grows
states with huge ag areas/farms, had that going for them, where as more wooded states lacked the high quality offering again
falls back to soil in my eyes, and builds off it

[89trackerpro17]

I agree with you mrbb. I've hunted PA for 25 years. The buck quality has increased since the antler restriction. I have tried to talk many people into passing on small bucks for at least 20 years. But most have the attitude of if I don't kill that small buck someone else will. We all need to get this mentality out of our heads. I keep pushing my philosophy to everyone I talk to. So hopefully some have a second thought or better yet just pass on that small buck. Don't know why people think they have to kill a small buck just to say they killed a buck. You can't eat antlers so why kill a small buck to me there is no personal achievement in killing small bucks. If you need meat kill a doe.

[nomad_archer]

So mrbb and 89tracker, I am one that has started to come around and believe in QDM and letting smaller bucks pass but that is only because I have seen some of the successes of a friend who does that and he consistently gets a great buck but he puts in alot of time.

On the other hand people buy licenses and are entitled to shoot whichever legal buck there heart desires. I shoot does for meat but I usually dont pass on many as long as they are not fawns I usually take the opportunity. The fact is the areas I hunt are large big woods public hunting areas in NW PA at my hunting camp. You typically have only one maybe two opportunities on a deer up there. Sometimes none at all. This year my old man hunted quite a bit in PA with a bow and rifle and never had a quality opportunity its just what it is. The antler restrictions are great and they have really helped but the herd reduction that when with those regulations when to far in the northern parts of the state. There just arnt very many deer. They are making a bit of a come back now that seasons have been adjusted but still they are few and far between. As for shooting smaller bucks if it is legal then I feel people are should not be looked down on for shooting whatever buck makes them happy. Yes passing on smaller bucks helps produce bigger bucks but some people just enjoy a successful hunt and that small basket rack six makes their year just as much as a 160" class buck would make yours. More and more people are passing on smaller bucks so you are going to see bigger bucks but every PA hunters goal is not the same. Any deer that a hunter takes and is proud of is a great personal achievement in my opinion.

If you want to trophy hunt then go about doing that but dont force everyone else to trophy hunt the same as you. Personally I have been passing on smaller bucks recently but if I have a nice say 80-100" deer walk by me up at my camp I may take that opportunity as it is a bigger buck by the standards up at my camp and I dont believe I have gotten one that big up there. I have only gotten a handful of bucks in my hunting career so any legal buck and deer for that matter is great and is celebrated as such. I have taken quite a few does over the years and we still celebrate those as well.

Maybe one day I will get to the point where I have the time and access to land where I will be passing on all of the smaller bucks that walk by but at this point I am not there. I believe in QDM and will let some of the smaller ones pass but at my camp if I like it I will shoot it. Thats just a counter opinion to what you guys are saying. I dont want to start a pissing match but I just feel like if it is legal and someone wants to take the animal then I have zero problem with that.

[mrbb]

Nomad I agree a the size of the kill shouldn't matter , as long as the hunter is happy
BUT since so many hunters use the . "IF I don't kill it someoen else will" excuse, and also hear so many hunters say, they wish they would get a big buck
well only way this happens is if foklks stop shooting smaller bucks
and to be honest, its not a great thing to be doing on the science side of things
there is plenty of proven data that having older deer breed, makes for a stronger better health herd
I too grew up hunting in the big woods, and still do from time to time, so I hear what your saying about quality
but at the same time, over killing deer in these places, was also, the hunters hunting there 's fault as much as the state's
hearing so many hunters in these area's cry about there being no deer left where there used to be tons, and then still killing every legal one they see
they are there own problem(granted teh state did allow the over kill)
but at same time, one main reason there is a lack of deer in ANY area, is lack of what a deer needs to live 24/7/365
and this fact seems to fall on deaf ears of far too many hunters
far too many hunters say well deer klived there yrs back, so should still be able to live there now
and that's is just wrong thinking
the forest have matured a ton, and the lack of new forest regeneration, left the mature forest , with poor if any good food for deer to live off yr round
I will blame the state here a LOT
as I am sure you heard me say this
and a asecond problem with these so called major BIG tracted state/federal forest(and not bashing at all)
is that these places come rifle season, turn into major hunting spots, with ten's of thousands or more hunters flocking to these areas, more so in the past, but still happens
so when you get a few hundred thousand hunters hunting in places that see little human traffic , and all these hunters feeling its a expected RIGHT to go home with a buck, they tend to kill first legal buck they see
most just do it cause they want to say they killed a buck, or just any deer for many
this thinking doesn't help an area where low deer numbers are, or poor habitat managment has been going on
thus hunters in these places can be as big or bigger parts of the problems
they can cry about the deer all they want, but if they keep killing deer, they are the problem
just cause you live own or?? doesn't mean you have to still hunt there
I know the feeling, I have a farm, I hunt loaded near deer, deer live off farm, and due to people about me, I cannot really hunt it no more, ot sucks
but moving would solve my hunting issue's
I can and have many other places to hunt, But I prefer to hunt at this farm, due to all I put into it, but its getting to the point, its a waste of my time
right thing for me to do would be hunt lese where

same answer it is for many others, yet most don't like this answer
few do anything to change the answer, by doing any real QDM to the lands they have access to, holding back on killing any more deer, , going to state meetings, writing state officials
they want the easy ride, with having the problem magically fixed by ???
again, I am not bashing on you Nomad
just pointing out problems and the facts, we the hunters are as much to blame as any state dept
granted the state has the power to change more, or does it??

[89trackerpro17]

I like the way you think mrbb. Agree 100%

[nomad_archer]

Well MRBB maybe the direction PA is going may chance since we are getting a new head for the PGC this year.

The low deer numbers in some areas are the hunters fault as well as the PGC since they manager the number of doe tags handed out and with that control to some degree the number of deer that are killed. Like I said they made changes to make the first week of rifle buck only and that alone has significantly helped the deer herd and we are seeing more deer now and a better quality of deer than we ever have. Now granted you have to take that with a grain of salt because we used to see insane amounts of deer but the quality wasnt there. I think we are getting right around the sweet spot at least around my cabin. A few more years and it will be fantastic. I am seeing better and better bucks but I do not complain about wanting bigger bucks then shoot the first one that walks by.

Any on that complains that they want bigger bucks and shoots the first one that walks by has there head up there rear if they think that is possible. We shall see the direction the PGC goes with a new head but where I hunt is big woods and the old gray beards love the antler restrictions because it was rare to see anything more than a spike now we are seeing big six/eight points so they are starting to believe as well. I have no complaints about the antler restrictions as they were the best thing the state has done.

Attitudes are changing towards letting the little ones go but you will always have the person that shoots the first one that walks by. I agree with alot of what you said. I think the key was if you are complaining about lack of big bucks and shoot the first small one that walks by you have no right to complain. I believe we are much more on the same page than I originally though.

[mrbb]

yes I agree, things have been changing, slightly for the better, but I have to think alot has to do with, many old timers are just not hunting anymore, and the new generation of hunters, seem to have more self control on what they will shoot
its very hard to change old time belief's, passed down from generation to generation
that's where I think we are screwed on poaching issue's and people using a tag twice or a family memebers tag, its a lot of learned behavior I fear

[nomad_archer]

Poaching and trespassing will always be an issue along with some peoples greed and need to cheat to get bragging rights.

We are losing lots of old timers but on the same hand most of the hunters I see these days are the older generation grey beards guys in their 50's and 60's. Thats who the majority of the hunters I see out these days. Not many young people in the 12-25 or 25-40 age group. So we will have a very sharp decline in PA hunters in the next say 20 years as the generation of grey beards that taught me to hunt give it up due to age, health or lack of desire.

Don't get me wrong we have some young guys hunting but its not nearly the numbers of hunter recruitment that we used to have. Maybe that is a good thing for the deer herd. But I have to be positive there has been a slight recovery in deer numbers at my cabin because the first week of rifle is buck only. That allows many more deer to survive the first week and then when doe season does come in, there isnt nearly the pressure. So it works out well in my mind. Plus the habitat is there to support more deer than are there at least for now.

[Griz]

I've been following this thread with interest. Everyone posting has made some very good points on why some states don't have very many larger bucks. As most of you know, I'm from NH, with the same problem. Not many animals make it to the 3.5 yr old or older ages. IMO the one's that are most responsible are the dnr's/fish & game departments. As all of you PA hunters have stated, since the antler restriction law has been in effect, things are getting better. And I believe will continue. If you look at the states that have good trophy numbers, there laws and restrictions are what makes the difference. Yes, you have to have the habitat, soil, and climate too. If you don't have the restrictions, the guys/gals who kill legal animals that are young and small have every right too. I have a hard time knocking some of them. I do believe as you evolve as a hunter, that your goals should change to letting the inmature animals walk. But as we know some people will always have the attitude, if its brown its down. Thats why I think the laws are the key. But the wardens have to inforce the laws to make it work. As mrbb has said before, some wardens just don't do there job. Another reason why I put the major blame on the departments. My state is some what like WV, I can kill three bucks in a season. (Just plain stupid!) Look at Ohio, one buck, no matter what weapon. Thats one reason Ohio is such a good place to hunt. The reason departments don't change the rules, is simple. They don't care about the animal, they only care about how much money comes in from liecence sales. Hopefuly discussions like this will make the new hunter (after a few knotches in there belt) gain self control, and raise there goals a little higher. As far as the hunter that actualy needs the meat to feed the family, do what you have to as longs as its legal.

PSEhunter, Your one of those young guys who has already understood what it takes to have mature animals around. At your age, if you keep having the success your having, the trophy room will get very large. I'm betting you have a good mentor.

[nomad_archer]

Griz I agree you bring up some very valid points.

My experience is mostly about PA and when the antler restrictions went into effect lots of people complained. Some still do but the fact is we are seeing more and larger bucks period. Even if someone is shooting an small immature six point it is still much larger than what we were seeing say 10 years ago when a six point was a rarity. Continuing with that we are seeing larger bucks and some 130"+ class deer. Now that aren't that common but we see a couple of "big bucks" each year maybe not quite 130 inches but much much better than in the past.

My biggest gripe with the PA Game Commission was the herd reduction program only because it went too far now granted herd reduction was needed and there is no argument there but we went from seeing lots of deer say 30+ in a day in rifle season to seeing 1-2 in the entirety of archery and rifle season. So when I say things are recoving up at my camp that means some days I see nothing but sometimes I see 1 a day and sometimes as many as 12 in a day. Not all are even in range for bow but at least I am seeing deer.

Granted my long stay for archery up there was 4 days in mid November.

Day 1 - I saw one shooter buck
Day 2 - I saw 12 does
Day 3 - I saw 1 doe (in my freezer)
Day 4 - I saw 6 or 7 does

Rifle season I was only able to hunt one day up there and we did lots of drives in the afternoon and I saw exactly zero deer between posting and driving. So all in all i was only skunked once on public land at my camp. Seems to be improving up there and this year should help as well since the does dont get much pressure in rifle like they used to. I hunted quite a bit more around home and at my gun club with my wife and we saw deer on just about each occasion. So like I said its getting better and we are seeing more deer. Everything is relative though. If you were used to seeing 30+ this hunting really stinks but after years of seeing 1-2 an entire season, I can work with what we have now. I do shoot does for meat and I am starting to buck hunt for a buck that was bigger than the last one but I haven't gotten any that many would consider "big" they are real trophies for me.

[PSEhunter]

Griz, I enjoy the compliment. I was blessed to be introduced to the outdoors at a young age by my grandpa and dad. By taking many squirell, doe, and a few small bucks at a younger age, I was able to and mature enough to learn to let deer walk by 8th grade, the age at which most kids (my friends back then) were bragging about the 4 point they shot.

All- I have really enjoyed the insight, opinions, and information from everyone. One other tidbit I may add. Is that as far as herd numbers and legal deer kills, as stated WV allows 3 bucks, and i BELIEVE 10 deer total!?! if you play your cards right and buy/use tags in correct times. While I do not know how I would quite feel about an actual antler restriction in WV (although it would help), I would just like to see them change the law to only being allowed to kill one buck during rifle season. I honestly think the quality of bucks would slowly start to improve if this was implemented. Again, guys who can kill the first 4-6 point they see Monday morning, can go back out Tuesday morning and shoot the second buck they see, a 5 point... Although this clearly wouldnt fix or change all problems, but anything is a start. WV, did make a move this year, by going in the direction of other states that two deer can be killed in one day, but not two bucks. Thus, people must take a doe between killing bucks. That is the case regardless of whether you kill a doe the same day. While I give WV game wardens/dnr some respect for implementing that, I dont see any progress to be made there. Somebody who wants to kill 2 bucks in 2 days, could simpy have someone who wants meat kill a doe and check it in themselves as their doe kill, thus allowing them to shoot a second buck the following day, like all prior years. My point, I do not feel WV implementing the rule a doe must be killed between buck kills, was a good solution. Although it may be a start, I personally feel simply reducing the legal buck kill from 3 to 2, or especially being only allowed ONE RIFLE buck, would help. Feel free to give insight or critique.

[nomad_archer]

PSE just to ease your concerns in PA the restrictions are simple and straight forward. In a some parts of the state the bucks must have 3 up off including the main beam and brow tines dont count on one side. In the rest and majority of the state a deer must have 3 points on one side including the brow tine and main beam. So that is something that does work well. In PA it is one buck regardless of weapon and because the doe tags are region specific and limited most people can get 2 does tags sometimes three if it is a special regs area. Usually I end up with 3 tags two doe and one buck and that is plenty for me. The ability to take 3 bucks and 10 total deer is crazy for most people. Now in PA there are special regs areas where you could if you wanted get as many does as you were willing to buy doe tags for but those are the counties around the major cities Pittsburgh and Philly and access is tough and to get an additional doe tag after the draw in those counties you have to go the the county court house which is an additional pain.

[Griz]

Its good your state (PA) has taken some steps to inprove the quality of bucks. After reading your explination to PSE on the restrictions, it all looks like common sense. I wish my state (NH) would try to do something as PA. Yah as you said people will complain but it could make the herd have more mature animals in it. As in PA, hunter will get use to it, and I think in the long run everyone would have more success. Its a good thing we all still have Ohio, its just a longer drive for me than you.

[mrbb]

well to add a little more
in PA the antler restriction did more than just allow bucks to age, it allowed Older healither bucks to breed, thus why many 4-5-6 pointers you see now, are just bigger 4-5-6 pointers than in past yrs, having/allowing older bucks to breed, makes for healthier off spring, making allowing for better first racks
WV I think and sorry if others don't feel so, they have the 2-3 bucks a yr deal, to control herd numbers, as they have a LOT of deer, just shooting more doe, won't solve the probelm in whole(would sure be cool to have a higher buck to doe ratio however LOL)
so till they get numbers down to more managiable level, they have the high harvest option, just look into how many deer vehicle collisions WV has, it shows there is a true safety factor, about too many deer, they have
just ause a state has a one or two buck or"X" amount of bucks allowed per yr, doesn't always show the best picture, there are many states where you can kill like a bucka day for months, be it any deer a day too.
and they have been like that for yrs and yrs and yrs, and they still have a lot of deer
QDM's biggest factor should always be what the land can provide for , in deer numbers,
and this needs in my opinion to be adressed a LOT better in smaller zone, units, or what ever you want to call them
the way we mamage deer now, is, doing the job, but can sure be done a ton better
said it many times here, a mile down the road, can be a huge difference in land quality, and deer numbers
when you look to manage numbers, in area's as big as counties or zones, its a hard nut to crack , just too many factors to make every unit/zone or?? done well
a healthy herd should be the goal, of deer managment, not the size of the bucks, but overall herd health
and that means age structure of all age's
and that typically means if done right, big bucks will be a lot more of the herd, than just having lots of 1.5 yr old deer come hunting season

as for hunter's age's
in my area, its a pretty good mix of old timers, and many in the 25-40 yr old age's
far too many of the older of both these age class's, are outlaws, to a point, they all tend to feel they HAVE to kill a buck, and its GOD given right to do so, and Many feel that means, at any means needed to do so!
meat hunters, I wish would stick to doe's, they would be doing all hunters a favor, as well as the deer herd
just shooting a buck, to say you shot a buck is a sad reason to hunt
I am NOT saying hunters should be trophy buck hunters, any buck can be a trophy, I agree here
but to keep a healthy herd, placing an antler restriction, helps to help more to keep a herd healthy, and just make BIG bucks
so since we cannot rely on self control many times, they work best with the AR's
also, lets not forget, when PA started the AR(antler restriction)
it was like a 25 dollar fine IF you got caught, pretty sure its still only a 25 dollar fine now too!
many folks seen that as, well a roll of the dice, and still shoot any buck they want
wish the fine was a lot higher!, that would maybe have helped spped up the improvements we gained here in PA!

[OHPA]

I agree with many of all of your statements. I use to live in Pgh. and now live in Cleve. My father and I have a cabin in NW. PA(Warren County). I now hunt both OH. and PA. Warren, Pa. is all mountains and I have hunted there for 35 years. Yes, I used to see more deer, but it was rare for me to see a racked buck. I must say though that the last two years in PA, I have seen more deer than normal. I took three with a bow out of the last 4 years in Pa. All descent racked bucks for PA. I hold out for larger ones in OH as I know the potential here.

I wait until November to start hunting PA. The first day for me this year(Nov. 4th), I saw about 14 deer and about 5 were bucks. Shooters were not in range. This is all sitting in my tree stand. The next morning, I saw a doe and then I took my 8 pointer. I stayed in my tree stand for about two hours after I shot since I did not see it drop. During that two hours, I saw about 5 more does and two more bucks. Granted, it was the rut and they were feeding on acorns in my area.

I was then done hunting in Pa for the year. No doe license for me. It is tradition for my dad and I to travel to there Friday after Thanksgiving through Wed. for gun opener in Pa. Special time for us. I did not hunt, but I did what I call a "mock" hunt this year opening day. I sit in my chosen spot for the day to help me find good future spots for hunting opening day. I had a great opening day(without a gun). I saw 19 deer total. Eight were bucks and five were shooters for me. One was possibly the biggest one I have seen there in many years. All this with possibly the fewest shots I have ever heard opening day. There are definitely less hunters in my area these days.

I like the antler restrictions in Pa. as I want to see larger bucks and I am definitely seeing larger bucks.

I also hunt about 40 minutesto one hour outside of Cleveland(depending on my spot I choose) and see fewer deer than Pa., but the fact that a trophy can be around the corner(I see them on my trail cams) keeps me in the stand hoping. I love both states, but the mountains of Pa. are in my blood. Nothing like the mountains for me. I have enjoyed this thread.
Thanks all.

[PSEhunter]

That in itself is the reason we all continue to head to Ohio, or are always looking to gain access to more land in Ohio. Not so much what we have killed, but what COULD be killed.