Antler Restrictions

[tilelayer1]

HI Fellow hunters,
I am fairly new to this site but enjoy reading these threads.I have hunted for about 40 years in Pa.As most of you may know,we have had antler restrictions for 7 or 8 years now.Where I live in eastern pa we can only shoot bucks with 3 or more points to one side (Y bucks not legal).Most hunters here are happy with this and I believe there are bigger bucks now and a healthier more balanced herd.When I started hunting in the early 70's most bucks (90%) didnt live more than a year and a half.Most of the bucks were spikes or y's.With this new AR rule in place,I see more bigger better and healthier deer now.I realize that Ohio has a better gene base than eastern Pa and for years pa hunters didnt want to shoot Does.We dont have as large a deer herd now, but the deer are bigger and the buck-to-Doe ratio is better.It makes for good debate,so,what do you Ohio hunters think about this.

[teej89]

I'm from pa also, central pa near state college and I think it's the best thing to happen to the Pa regulations, next I want them to reduce rifle season to one week, get rid of rifles and convert to ohios gun regulations, and potentially adding in sunday hunting. Honestly I never stopped hunting does, ppl would always complain about the deer herd and so on and so forth but does need to be taken just as bucks do but it's the type of doe you shoot and unlike the antler restrictions they can't put an age restriction for does, but a solid mature doe that has seen her prime is always a good kill.

On that note, growing up in central Pa you here the saying that makes me furious "if it's brown it's down" i can't stand these hill billy hunters like that, probably why I don't rifle hunt either because that's the only time you'll see them. I couldn't tell you how many times when I was younger that I thought I saw hunters dragging a chocolate lab outta the woods b/c the thing was at MOST 70 lbs.

If only Pa could be more like ohio........

[mrbb]

well I am from NE Pa as well, and in the 3 pt AR zone
and sadly here where I am , a lot of folks don't follow the rule much even now
and I agree AR will work, if people follow them, but
I think its a people deal, either folks want bigger bucks or they don't

as for it helping the herd be better balanced
I think any older buck doing breeding over younger one's is a plus, but not a fix all

as for buck to doe ratio's, well I know for a fact any place that has GOOD feed, still has major buck to doe ratio's as always, or maybe worse, due to there are still many groups of folks that still won't shoot doe in pA

deer numbers to me are much more focused on food than anything else
where there is food there is deer and lots of them
my farm has tons of deer, yet 1.5 miles down the road on public game lands, your hard pressed to find a der track in the snow after snow has been on the gorund for a week!

I have counted over a 100+ deer at once in my field, and I am talking just 1.5 miles down the road almost NO deer

there is nothing for them to live on 365 days a yr there, thus they left that area
they didn't get killed off, they simply moved to greener grounds

that to me is the biggest thing hunters in PA don't get

they all blame(well lots do) for allowing so many doe tags , and as such depleting deer numbers from lands that once held lots of deer
these same people still seem to shoot deer there where they claim there are none, making matters worse

in the 70's and into the 80's our forest were re growing and full of fed for wildlife, thus deer numbers grew, the state did nothing to see the forest stayed as healthy riding the crown to bragging rights of having the most deer, thus selling the most lic's

all the while the forest got eaten to where deer cannot reach QUALITY feed
and then as a fast ditch fix they wanted hunters to kill a ton of deer/ preferably doe, due to they are the ones that mulitply fastest giving birth to more!
a correct move but way too late to fix the damage done

as a result, more land for deer to roam, fewer hunters in the woods, well bigger racks are sure to follow, as just more bucks live longer, AR or not
they have more room to hind/grow old in now than ever!

I don't see ohio needing a AR, there forest, well all them where i have hunted the past 12+ yrs, all are pretty alive and growing , they have more crop lands than most of PA, helping take stress off a forest (lest not forget, PA lost over 50 % of its farms in the past 15 yrs, and that in itself should be alarming to people that live in PA., but sadly doesn't seem to be an issue to most)

the locals all seem to know bigger bucks are there, so self impose AR on what they will shot as for a buck

to me it ain't broke, so don't fix it in Ohio

PA should take some advice on deer management from them if you ask me


this is also a fact to ponder,m every state that borders PA, has an increase in wildlife, and PA< well, minus bears and turkeys, has has a major loss of wildlife the past 10+ yrs
Pa was a top 5 pheasant state, and now a wild pheasant is a very rare sight in 95% of PA, minus the wild ones they NOW released in a few spots(after litterly 100's of millions of dollars on pen raised birds, they finally figured out they don't live or wasn't fixing the problem, just wasting money that could have bneen spent in my eyes a lot better ways, and not on salary raise's or new trucks building or cars, but back into restoring Pa's habitat to what it was, and should be!)

so folks in PA need to maybe start asking WHY our wild life is dropping,and every other states about us in increasing, and not be so DEER only worried!, or AR worried
not bashing you , just speaking my mind
AND< sorry so long winded, but I just see what other states have done, and what sadly MY home state has done, piss's me off!

MY 2 cents

[teej89]

mrbb

you've hit every nail on the head, i wish every hunter in pa could be like this.

his post should literally be the end of this discussion.

[nomad_archer]

Well well the fun pa debate. I dont mind the AR some of the heard reductions went a little far in some places but were very much needed to an extent across the state. But they have started to reign in the doe seasons and opening day slaughter that happened in alot of the state by reducing the doe season to the second week of the season. By my camp that was something that was very much needed hopefully in the next few years the doe population up there starts the rebound a bit.

I will argue though that making PA shotgun only will not help at all and will never happen. The reason being there is alot of tradition with rifle season in PA. In ohio shotgun only makes alot of sense from a saftey prosective since large portions of the state are very very flat. In PA the terrain is fairly hilly and there are very few spots that one could really shoot more then 200 yards unless you are looking out over a field or some extremely open woods where there is a very low chance that you will have deer passing through. Also most of the shotguns these days with rifled barrels and the like are capabile at 200+. This is the main point I disagree on.

To mrbb, the biggest issue I see with the deer is the fact that the PGC isnt re-investing in the public land. Most of the gamelands havent had a clear cut in some time especially not in areas that are not right off the road. The clear cuts really help that habitat especially in the 10 years or so after the cut. Also there are way way to many empty food plots on the game lands period in contrast this is where ohio does a fantastic job. In ohio every piece of public hunting property I hunted on had a plethora of food plots.

[teej89]

I guess my argument with the shotgun only comment is the fact that some people, and I stress some people, tend to hail mary rounds out to passing deer, whether they're walking, running, standing, or not even sure if it's a deer. Yeah I know that shotguns can go up to 200 yards but it's the comfort level that when you go out to the range with a rifle and shoot a 1 inch group at 200 yards compared to going to the range with a shotgun and shooting a 16 inch group with a shotgun at 200 yards. I guess i'm arguing against myself b/c the ppl that are flailing bullets out there long distance at moving deer, do they even really care about comfort or just the kill? And another point i'm saying for shotguns is that the deer has to be somewhat closer and also that gives the hunter a better glance to size up the deer before taking the shot.

I remember when I was 16 and was the first rifle season i could hunt by myself, i was so excited, and I always saw deer in this area every year but it was the fact I was by myself taht I was so stoked for, long story short i saw nothing all evening and an hour before shooting closed I saw a deer and shot and when I got to it, it was a button buck. It was as if I gut shot a buck with a bow, i was dissapointed in myself and embarrassed to take it home to my dad because I didn't want him to seem like i had bad judgement since it was my first time out on my own.

[mrbb]

nomad_archer
I agree 110 % about the sdtate not doing ENOUGH work on repairing the damaged forest we have
and sadl not shooting doe in areas where the forest are food less, won't bring the doe /deer numbers back, there still isn't enough GOOD quality food all yur to support them sure a few will spread out in there, but its food they need every day to live on

PA has one of the largest tracts of public lands in the east coast, sitting on millions and millions of dollars of timber, and always bitching about being broke
never understand it
they , from the 1950's to mid 70's di so much logging, controled burns, and even feeding in winters to keep wildlife numbers up

then they got lazy is my opinion, they all got raises, spend money on benefits( and not just for the workers, but there whole familiy's) and new buildings and cars and trucks equipment

and forgot about the wildlife that was making them money, from hunters and tourism, and all that

now all they say is budget this budget that, sitting on millions of timber
not saying cut it all down, but if they need money to get by, stop asking for it always from the hunters, and cut some timber to help the wildlife out, I agree its a powerful tool to help wildlife out, and not just the income it makes, but the cover and food it makes!

they are willing to iopen lands up for the oil companys I see??

but how's that helping the wildlife????

[nomad_archer]

I hate that they are willing to allow oil drilling but not making some money on the timber. My camp is by the Allegheny National Forest which is run by the forest service. That place needs a good logging and that is an understatement. There isnt any understory to talk about and there hasnt been for a long long time. Its sad honestly. There are some places up by my camp that have a really nice mix of old oaks hear and there and a ton of scrub oaks and that place is great for small game, grouse and deer. Its tough to hunt but you can easily be rewarded. That area is private but posted as open for public hunting by the paper company. It has been thicker than thick for the last 14 years that I have hunted it on and off.

I find myself hunting more and more private land that is posted as open for public hunting because the private parties are willing to have the property logged, etc for financial gain but it just so happens to help the wildlife as well. A win -win in my books.

[mrbb]

I agree, my huntin g camp is on a 25,000 acre chunk of land they needs more timber harvested, as like your place just no browse a deer can reach anymore, all grown timber

I am in the oil drilling prime area, and they were SO quick to allow them on the lands there wasn't funny, they were no lie following the oil trucks about asking who to talk to about getting drilling done!

like WTF, log make money and do the wildlife some good
don't get it its like it costs them money to timber the way they look at it or something
timber companys will pay good money and do ONLy as they want no problems asked, even fix roads to do it

lazy bunch of folks in my book, I sold lic's for 10+ yrs, had to deal with a ton of game wardens in PA, and they all were sorry to say more or less all jerks
I have traveled to many states hunting and every single warden I ever meet out of state was so nice compared to our people
they seemed just too gald to talk to you like a person, and not a criminal tryin g to fine you for something like here in PA

they need to work on wildlife and people skilss if you ask me here in PA
A shame, we should have such awesome hunting here with all the lands we have too!

[tilelayer1]

Well said MRBB,and thanks for the reply folks.
I DO think PGC needs to learn better management practices,but I think everyone knew this would be a controversy.It seems as though they are getting a better understanding of how to manage certain areas but have alot more to learn.I have always hunted and still do hunt public land.Deer hunting has changed so very dramatically here it is unbelievable!...YES deer numbers are down but look at license sales,they are wayyyy down.Even doe tags were very slow selling this year.In 5c there are (last count)still 80.000 left.What I'm getting at is less licensed hunters=less money in the tills and a weaker voice for ppl that do hunt.License sales have dropped every year since the masscree of 01 and 02.Hunters that go hunting and hardly ever see game get discouraged and stop hunting.Todays youth that hunt is a very small percentage.Thats why the PGC has opened up many more opportunities for mentored hunting.I agree totally!!
Without hunters the sport will fizzle and may only be for the rich
As for the timber sales I can say that I have seen alot of timber cut lately.I hunt Bradys lake area and pocono lakes also near the pocono racetrack, many acres have been cut.
I cannot compare Pa to Ohio,but I will be making my first trip to the S.E.area the 2nd week of Oct.I have not decided exactly where yet but am thinking about Wayne forest.Yes,I am depending on going public land but from what I have heard ppl in Ohio are good friendly ppl!

[mrbb]

well I agree, lic sales are WAY down in pa, some 250, 00 from the glory yrs, and why the PGC is crying about funds, as Lic sales fund there pay checks

BUT hey they did it to themselves in my eye's

they let the game disappear siting on there hind ends when things were good, and waited too long to notice

and who wants to pay for a lic to hunt less game and lower quality game than you can else where
PA right now is at its best chance for BIG buck than ever in my opinion, but I won't say the state had that in mind
its just a by product of a crash that happened to the herd
I have gone to many PGC public meetings and meet with a lot of sportsman groups

they dodge real questions like crazy if you ask, always asking to speak after a meeting

they don't like being called out on there mistakes nor seem to take any responsibity for there actions

I always ask them about the pheasants we used to have, and how its NOT there fault they disappeared here

they blame everyone but them selves

hell way I see it, there JOB was to protect wildlife Game in PA, so when it dis appears, who else is at fault!!
like come on, if anyone tries to kill a wild critter with out a lic they will fine the crap out of you claiming the critters are there's

but when one dis appears some how its not there fault!!

[nomad_archer]

mrbb,
I most certainly agree. As of the pheasants it is the most laughable waste of money in my mind to stock pheasants to make it like the good old days for 3 days. I would rather see them shut down the pheasant season, create the habitat and reintoduce the wild pheasant to self sustainable levels. They did it with the turkey and elk why not the pheasants? There is to much money wasted on the pheasant stocking but if they want to continue to do that make the people that want to hunt the pheasants but a stamp for that. At least that portion will be partially funded if the PGC wants to continue to stock. In the 14 years I have hunted in PA I havnt seen one pheasant so stock as much as they want the farm raised pheasants arent making it more then a few hours into the season and that is a waste.